Daily Kos

The Sound of Sanctimony. How Dare You, Bill.

Fri Oct 26, 2007 at 10:23:00 PM PDT

Hi there.  This is my first diary.  I had no idea that my first diary would be all about how I don't like the Clintons anymore, but that's just how it is.  I'm sick of the way Hilary was ushered by the press (from the beginning) into "inevitability" status, I'm sick of Hillary's Oprah shtick, I'm sick of her lack of leadership on all issues, especially foreign policy, the environment, and healthcare, I'm sick of the way they shill for big business, and I'm sick, most of all, of their sanctimonious tone.  They weren't always like this, but I suppose this is now the end-product of being slandered, smeared, and abused in many other morbid and depraved ways by the Grand Wizard Party for nearly two decades.  The Republicans' intention was to systematically destroy them, and to an extent I now think they've succeeded: The Clintons just aren't nice to Americans all the time anymore.

Just after I rolled into work this morning, I performed my usual routine of skimming all the blogs.  I ran across this on huffpo:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...

"A fraud? No, it wasn't a fraud," Clinton said, responding to one of the hecklers as the audience cheered. "I'll be glad to talk to you if you shut up and let me talk." Another protester yelled that the attacks were an "inside job."

"An inside job? How dare you. How dare you. It was not an inside job," Clinton said. "You guys have got to be careful, you're going to give Minnesota a bad reputation."

I'm disappointed in President Clinton.  I never thought I'd hear him say "How dare you" to people who were excersizing their first amendment rights, even if they were rude and/or acting crazy.  If these people really think that their government conspired to murder over three thousand Americans in order to flush us down into an authoritarian upside-down nightmare world, does anyone really need to ask them how they could possibly dare to be panicked enough to voice their concern?  Is it a surprise that they're in a bit of a frenzy, considering what they believe?  

The correct response would probably have been more like "I think you folks might want to calm down," or "It's terribly unfortunate that you believe that.  I can understand why thinking these things would cause you to act like this [I feel your pain], but your beliefs are unfounded, and you're being suckered," while waiting for the goons to drag them away.  That would have been a nice opportunity to talk about how Republican rule has lead us to this or something.  The President's joke-making at their expense, after they were dragged away, wasn't even funny.  From the way the article was written, it looks as if he poked fun at them before they were removed, but the video makes it seem like he was making light of them during or after they were gone.  Either way, it just belittled them as people, rather than belitting their point of view or just specifically their form of conduct.  He wasn't speaking to them as equal humans.  He was being weak, which is the opposite of how he perceived himself at the time, I'm sure.  Maybe he just doesn't realize that even though he's a former President, being on the edge of getting into the Whitehouse again and saying "How dare you" in such grave tones to American citizens kinda rings of authoritarianism and sounds more like a Republican's behavior, rather than the Bill Clinton of yore.

I can't expect anyone to be perfect; to be on their game at all times, but I expected more from Bill.  He was my President when I was growing up. He turned the world around me more beautiful and prosperous.  He was an enlightened, eloquent leader (the first and only during my lifetime), and most of all he seemed to really understand people.  But his current santimony irks me, even if I can see how I'd also probably behave like that, or worse, if I'd been in politics when and where and for how long he was.  It reminds me of that time Hillary was at a town hall meeting and brushed off a question for not being framed right or something.

All of her campaign has been soulless artifice.  I don't care how successful it seems.  It's nausiating, seeing her spew her own piety at the debates, talking down from on high about what people running for President should and should not be careful about what to say (who made her the judge?), and claiming that there's no way any campaign contributions from insurance companies could ever influence her decision making, even though her plans seem to include them making more money. How dare you imply she'd take a bribe?  Sanctimony is a common facade for disingenuous people.

I'm pretty sure that most people (including me) think that the 9-11 conspiracy theorists are kinda crazy.  But I will say this for them: their view of the world is more realistic and less destructive than the people who think Saddam Hussein carried out the 9-11 attacks, and the people who voted to give George Bush authorization to attack Iraq, and the people who are currently helping to pave a very bumpy road into Iran.

The Clintons might need a break from Washington.  Look at what exile did for Al Gore.

(updated to fix a spelling error.  thank you, arodb!)

Tags: Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, 9-11 Conspiracy, Authoritarianism, Joe Lieberman, Iraq, Iran, Chris Matthews (all tags) :: Previous Tag Versions

Permalink | 161 comments

    •  I tipped you for this: (4+ / 0-)

      The correct response would probably have been more like "I think you folks might want to calm down," or "It's terribly unfortunate that you believe that.  I can understand why thinking these things would cause you to act like this [I feel your pain], but your beliefs are unfounded, and you're being suckered," while waiting for the goons to drag them away. That would have been a nice opportunity to talk about how Republican rule has lead us to this or something.

      It saddens me, too, to think that so many people have become so paranoid.  I believe that the lies of the Bush administration (and faux news) have caused a suspicion that sometimes works its way into a kind of fearful frenzy.

      I can understand Clinton (or Bill Maher) getting upset at hecklers.  But the fear that the hecklers portray comes straight out of the hell that the Bushes created.

      Investigate! Impeach! Indict! Incarcerate!

      by Cato come back on Fri Oct 26, 2007 at 11:01:42 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bill Maher's response was awesome. (3+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        moiv, dkmich, yoduuuh do or do not

        I loved that episode of Real Time.  I was hating the 9-11 hecklers along with everyone else, and it filled me with glee to see Bill Maher go Mussolini on those motherfuckers.

        But he's a comedian and talkshow host.  Bill Clinton might spend another 8 years in the Whitehouse.

        I understand, by the way, why people think that the Clintons are independent of eachother.  Well, no I don't.  I was pandering, just now.  The truth is, they've been a team all along.  Back in the day, Bill said "Two for the price of one" when he first landed in the Whitehouse, talking about how prominent Hillary's role was (which I loved).  Let's not be silly and assume otherwise this go-around.  That's just straight up silly talk.

        •  I fail to see why Clinton should react (3+ / 0-)

          any differently than Mahar.  It was an accusation about the office that he once held.  Mahar is merely a bystander in this.  Clinton is being accused by association himself.  And having had the responsibilities of the job himself, it would be an even more personal insult.  So you loved Maher's response, but not Clintons.  I fail to see why Clinton should be expected to act differently to that level of accusation.  Sometimes people just don't deserve respect, as in the cultists.  This was one of those times not to be all things to all people and react with his own genuine reaction.

          •  Point by point. (6+ / 0-)

            It was an accusation about the office that he once held.

            It's as if he's being accused of once sitting on a toilet that somebody else who he doesn't like is now having explosive yellow shitstorms in.  So what?  There's no there there.

            And having had the responsibilities of the job himself, it would be an even more personal insult.

            In what universe does that make sense?  He did a good job.  Now there's a new boss in town who sucks.  Maybe this boss is a madman, or a serial frog-exploder, a Decider, or a dimbulb.  What's ya man got ta do wit me?

            So you loved Maher's response, but not Clintons.  I fail to see why Clinton should be expected to act differently to that level of accusation.

            Yes, you fail.  Stop failing!  Because he wasn't being accused of anything, and he isn't a tv comedian.

            Sometimes people just don't deserve respect, as in the cultists.

            Yeah, let's throw rocks at them, get them fired from their dayjobs (if they have them) and all point at them and laugh.  That's sure to lessen their motivation!

          •  Maher didn't say "How Dare You" (5+ / 0-)

            twice.

            that's the difference.

            Clinton getting angry? Fine. as far as I'm concerned, the 9/11 Truthers have it all wrong, and hecklers of course piss anybody off, no matter what they have to say.

            It's the "How dare you?" that rubs me the wrong way. Here in America, even nutcases have First Amendment rights. and we all are allowed to DARE to ask anyone we HIRE BY OUR VOTES to run our government a question, even somebody named "Clinton" or "Bush."

            If the question had been: "Do you believe the Bush administration deliberately lied about WMDs and about "greeting us with parades and flowers" and such because they knew that if Americans understood their real agenda, they would refuse to support the illegal invasion?" would Clinton have responded, "How Dare You!"

            I wonder.

            •  Bill Maher went down into the audience and helped (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              phoenixdreamz

              remove the hecklers.  That is better than saying HOw Dare YOU twice?

              •  I didn't say it was "better" or "worse" but it is (0+ / 0-)

                different.

                A former President asking how somebody "dares" to ask a question in the good ole USA, is different than a talk show host getting pissed off at hecklers.

                Again, I don't blame Clinton for getting pissed off; I just think it's telling that the main thrust of the response was not "you're wrong," "you're crazy", "screw you" "shut up" or "go to hell," but "How Dare You!," repeated twice.

            •  rather broad brush you have there (0+ / 0-)

              "as far as I'm concerned, the 9/11 Truthers have it all wrong"



              ````
              peace

              •  9/11 Truthers are broad brushers themselves --- (0+ / 0-)

                that in their so-called "evidence" -- not just in a quick comment!

                one of the last diaries I wrote here was about the lies in the 9/11 Report, "Ben-Veniste admits 9/11 Commission knew about Tenet briefings,"

                but as far as the Truthers, go, I'll let Alexander Cockburn speak for me:

                http://www.counterpunch.org/...

                at that link, you'll find:

                Alexander Cockburn here assembles his two prime commentaries in a final, expanded essay, "The 9/11 Conspiracists and the Decline of the Left."

                Manuel Garcia Jr, physicist and engineer, presents his three separate reports, undertaken for CounterPunch.

                Part One is his report on the Physics of 9/11.

                Part Two (published here for the first time) is his report on the Thermodynamics of 9/11.

                Part Three, "Dark Fire", is his report on the collapse of the World Trade Center's Building 7.

                JoAnn Wypijewski wrote her essay "Conversations at Ground Zero" after a day spent with people at the site on 9/11/2006.

    •  Frankly, I think the fact that you consider (13+ / 0-)

      Bill Clinton to have been an "enlightened and eloquent" leader simply shows how far the Democratic party has fallen in the last thirty years--and your age. Did you ever actually try to listen to his State of the Union speeches? After the first budget that raised taxes on the wealthy, what did the Clintons ever do for a progressive agenda?? During the Clinton presidency, they signed on to and legitimized the push for regime change in Iraq; pushed through NAFTA; supported measures that undid New Deal reforms in banking, greatly advanced the use of private contractors, privatization, and deregulation generally; failed to do anything to advance alternative energy, conservation, and efficiency; greatly harmed the poor through welfare "reform" and their acquiescence to the ideology that denigrates the public square and idolizes corporations, etc. etc. They were and are a disaster for the Democratic party. If you want a a fairly moderate but hawkish Republican, vote Clinton.

    •  I thought you were ouroboros (0+ / 0-)

      now I see you're a different user.


      ````
      peace

  •  You're not being very nice to Hillary :) (6+ / 0-)

    The Clintons just aren't nice to Americans all the time anymore.

    Do any of the candidates qualify as being "nice to Americans all the time"? And should they?

    "Never" forget 8-6-08: the glorious day edscan "made" the Rec List.

    by Ekaterin on Fri Oct 26, 2007 at 10:31:41 PM PDT

  •  He was right to do that (10+ / 0-)

    Anything else would have been used against him in the mainstream media. Also 3000 Americans died that day. As his wife is the junior Senator from NY, and he relocated to Harlem after he left the White House, I am sure that they saw the carnage firsthand. His response was the human one.

  •  Clinton has every right in the world to react (16+ / 0-)

    the way he did to people disturbing and heckling his speech with that trash.  They were insinuating, no not insinuating, that 911 was an inside job.  That to me is one of the most offensive and outlandish thoughts possible.  Even Bush is not evil enough to do that.  How dare they insinuate that in the middle of his speech?  And Clinton was the one in the wrong?

    Hillary's Oprah shtick?  WTF are you referring to?  

    Funny you would choose this as your first diary.  

    •  I have every right in the world to react, too. (2+ / 0-)

      Recommended by:
      Prognosticator, wmacdona66

      Kind of a non-starter, right?

      What's offensive to me is when people run for the smelling salts and over-react instead of discussing ideas.  Why can't you or the President deflate the 9-11 Conspiracy arguments using logic, instead of talking about how offensive and outlandish their ideas are?  Can't you see they have a leg up on you?  They're shouting "facts" at you and instead of defeating them, you're talking about being offended.

      I guess with Hillary's Oprah shtick I'm referring to the way she generally seems more like a TV personality, acting larger than she really is, than a real person.  Maybe it's because she's a politician, but there was always a humble charm about Bill that she just isn't accessing.  (Nor is he when loony-tune loudmouths get the better of him, making him act like you did just now, all emotional.)

      •  What "facts" are they throwing (6+ / 0-)

        out.  All their inferences have been debunked.  How should Clinton react if a group yelled from the audience that Bush was brought here on an alien ship and should be exposed?

        •  Probably not in such grave tones (0+ / 0-)

          because then he'd be, oh, taking them seriously?!?!?!?

          All he had to do was take the air out of their arguments in a logical and humane manner that didn't make him remind me of the fat nurse in Porky's 2 (So sayeth the flock!).  I feel he was capable of this, and failed.

          •  Maybe she wasn't a nurse (0+ / 0-)

            do you know what I'm talking about though?  That fat angry woman who hated kids and sex but loved piety and being in a sheep society.

          •  So he was impolite to people accusing the govt. (6+ / 0-)

            of killing their own people.  Somehow, I just don't think it is important for him to get down and feel their pain.  They were the ones who were interupting with some ridiculous offensive claim.  I just don't get why you think politicians have to be enabling to everyone.  

            Who is your candidate?  just curious.  Are you a democrat?

            •  I cannot compute (0+ / 0-)

              I'm going through all possible mentations and I just can't understand why accusing the government of anything absurd, ridiculous, offensive, outlandish, or completely silly is somehow so wrong that it excuses a nasty tone coming out of anyone's mouth in response, especially the former leader of the free world.  

              What, there are people in the world who so frighten you with their "ideas" and "refuted "facts" that were all debunked" that you need to act like they just took a shit on your car?

              I'm a Democrat, and my annonymous endorsement of anyone should mean nothing to nobody.  While we're on topic, what's your social security number?

              People who say "How dare you" to hecklers are tyrants.  I think there's a tyrant inside of all of us, and it upsets me when any of us let it out.

              •  It has nothing to do with frightening (5+ / 0-)

                me into not listening to their beliefs.  It has to do with having reviewed them all, seeing how stupid and inept their beliefs are, what the source of their beliefs are, and comeing to the conclusion that they are offensive in what they are suggestive.  Their views have been very openly reviewed here, and I am sure with his brillance, that Clinton has reviewed them well and actually knows why some of them are not possible or legitimate without even having to look it up.  His inside understanding of the possibility of this not happening or happening, trumps all of our understanding.  

                Fear has not a damn thing to do with it.  

                I am hearing in your defense of the "right" of the hecklers to believe in it, the possible belief in some of it yourself.  Maybe that is why you are so offended by Clinton.  Because you consider it an affront to yourself.  

                Others of us are pretty secure in our beliefs that it didn't happen, because we have taken the time to vet all the accusations, and we don't believe that our govt. however inept, is capable of doing that to itself, especially if it had to be done secretely.  That kind of secret maneuver does not stay secret for long.

                No political leader has any obligation to put up with that shit.

                •  Please refute the following: (0+ / 0-)

                  If these people really think that their government conspired to murder over three thousand Americans in order to flush us down into an authoritarian upside-down nightmare world, does anyone really need to ask them how they could possibly dare to be panicked enough to voice their concern?  Is it a surprise that they're in a bit of a frenzy, considering what they believe?

                  My point was that President Clinton (I do still love that sound) was asking them a very stupid question.  A quick gaze into what they believe in, dumb or not, is all you need to understand how they could dare to act out like that.  Asking somebody how they dare to believe in something is one of the stupidest questions ever.  Sometimes people believe things just because they do, and they're dumb.  You might as well ask the sky how it dares to change color.

                  The Bill as I remember him... even if this is only a sad fiction in a child's brain, he always seemed so great at simultaneously comforting people in anguish and using logic to convince them he was right about something, and on their side.  He may as well be a Richard Dawkins on steroids, yelling how dare you at people for believing in God.

                  •  These people are in anguish? (2+ / 0-)

                    Recommended by:
                    harrylimelives, phoenixdreamz

                    Sometimes it is okay to just enjoy the suffering of others.  At least I feel okay about it in these circumstances.  

                    I don't see these people as being in anguish, and I doubt that clinton does either.  They're more like someone who is attempting to destroy the country through trying to proove what they are pushing just for the enjoyment of doing so.  But the problem is is that they are too obsessed to believe any kind of information otherwise presented to them.  I don't consider fanatic obsessive conspiracy theoracists to be in anguish, or even capable of anguish.  They are people willing to do anything to get at Bush, basically, including trying to bring down our govt and country in the process.  they are an odd sort not really deserving of understanding and patience, and certainly not in anguish, except the anguish that the menally ill sometimes esperience.

                    •  This is why we will NEVER agree: (1+ / 0-)

                      Recommended by:
                      William Domingo

                      Sometimes it is okay to just enjoy the suffering of others.

                      There is no possible context which makes that sentence look okay.  None whatsoever.

                      How dare you!

                      ....

                      Didn't Bill seem like he wanted to smack them all across the face with a leather glove, Yosemite Sam style?

                      •  Sometimes it is okay to just enjoy the suffering (0+ / 0-)

                        Clinton is the ultimate "Bush Dog" Democrat. He doesn't like anyone casting aspersions on his adopted family members. Would any Republicans come to his defense if other Republicans were casting aspersions against him?

      •  You know what, I kind of agree with you (1+ / 0-)

        Recommended by:
        wmacdona66

        I think maybe we expected more compassion from Bill Clinton. He is smart enough to set the heckler straight in a nicer manner. As much as I enjoyed the interview Bill Clinton gave to Chris Wallace, and how he went off on him and gave the Democrats a bit of a spine. I could see how others objected to the venom in Clinton's voice. I think both Bill and Hillary have the "how dare you challenge us" attitude. Didn't George Stephanopoulos write a book about Bill and Hillary, and didn't he say what a terrible temper Bill had when he felt challenged? I seem to remember something written about exactly that, and it was from someone in the Clinton administration. I wonder if the Presidency changes people, once they win it, they feel like they are infallible or royalty.

        •  I wonder how good they are at hiding (0+ / 0-)

          that how dare you challenge us attitude, and how long they've had it, and how much more seriously I should have taken all the literature about that aspect of them.  Which, by the way, is something I'm willing to forgive in exchange for better leadership than Republicans.  

          You're right.  His how dare you didn't really make any sense in asking how dare they believe something silly, but how dare you disrupt my shin dig is probably what he was burning to say.

          •  Quite honestly, (1+ / 0-)

            Recommended by:
            Prognosticator

            I am growing very tired of the whole Clinton thing. I want new leadership, not just some recycled administration. I had great hopes for Bill Clinton, voted for him twice, but I was disappointed, and sorry, but if Hillary wants to run with Bill's aura, she has to take the good with the bad. In my gut I believe it is time to turn the page.

            •  They might also want to (1+ / 0-)

              Recommended by:
              Prognosticator

              reconsider that whole NAFTA and WTO thing.  You have no idea how bothered I feel when I have to call Bangladesh every time I need to complain about somebody's service or a messed up part of something I bought.  If she wants to run with Bill's aura, I'd respect her more if she addressed and accounted for some of the major grievances people still have with them, from all sides of the aisle.  Especially before she's IT.  The Goopers will tear her apart for anything we forget to try and tear her apart for before she seals the deal.  It's better if she builds up some defenses if she ends up having to win this thing for us.

              •  I think (1+ / 0-)

                Recommended by:
                harrylimelives

                The Goopers will tear her apart for anything we forget to try and tear her apart for before she seals the deal.

                She can handle it...better than you suggest.

                Mariachi Mama Candidate Bickering Moratorium! Signatory to the Carnacki Petition

                by kredwyn on Sat Oct 27, 2007 at 12:58:11 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Yes I do (have an idea)... (0+ / 0-)

                After getting a two-day run-around from half the folks in India (Bangladesh, wherever) from Symantec over Norton Anti-virus, who wanted to charge me $40 to "fix" a problem that was a false-positive, "Trojan horse" their software "found" that was nothing (I discovered it was precipitated by my new ISP using a certain port), I have an idea how bothered you feel!

                I switched to Security Shield (I'm very pleased - free US customer service), and vowed never to use Symantec again, but come "renewal time", they performed an unauthorized "renewal" debit to my checking account, that I had to reverse!

                Avoid Symantec...

                •  I'm getting sick of Symantec too (1+ / 0-)

                  Recommended by:
                  phoenixdreamz

                  I had to go through technical support two to help me install it two years in a row -- and had to pay for their help. And it messed up my computer too.

                  I took my computer into the Geek squad and they fixed it and installed Trend Micro-virus, which has been working fine.

                  I will concede though, the tech support from India was very good. They were all (I had about 4-5 different people helping me) very patient and knowledgable.

                •  Never allow them to debit your checking account, (0+ / 0-)

                  it takes forever to have it reversed,if at all possible use an American Express card, if you refuse to pay, American Express will remove it from your bill and they will dispute the charge, and you do nothing. That is one reason, I will never give up my Amex card. Also, they have a great deal on travel insurance, it costs $9.95 if you buy your airline ticket and charge it to your Amex card. My husband's digital camera was stolen from his luggage by someone once he checked it. Jet Blue would not replace it, and you had to jump through hoops to put a claim in to TSA. Fortunately we had the Amex insurance, within two weeks we got paid by Amex. They cover lost or stolen luggage, and anything stolen from your luggage. Am I sounding like an American Express advertisement? I didn't mean to.

  •  Well, in point of fact, she votes with the (8+ / 0-)

    progressive wing of the Senate on issue related to health care and insurance companies - so apparently, it hasn't impacted her vote.

    i'm disappointed in Dems who rag on the Clintons endlessly. I don't care if you support her for president, but I do care that you make the campaign, if she receives the nomination, more difficult.

    Bill and Hillary have spent their entire adult trying to make this nation a better place for all of us. it would be nice if they were treated with a little more respect.

    The Watermelon - a comedy about how really weird things can happen! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDimaB95fK0

    by lorelynn on Fri Oct 26, 2007 at 10:45:52 PM PDT

  •  it is Hillary Rodham Clinton.... (4+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    Rimjob, hopscotch1997, lorelynn, bythesea

    who is running, not the other one.  They are independent individuals.

    And Bill's reaction was human.  And to say that believing in the 9-11 conspiracy is mitigated because of other illusions of the public, such as Saddam carried out the 9-11 attacks, doesn't wash.

    Counterfactual beliefs of all kinds must be refuted by those in respected positions.  And accusing Bush of something he didn't do, dilutes the power of condemnation for those things that he is responsible for.
    ............
    And an editing tip.  Spelling counts, especially in the last sentence of your piece.  Exile would be the preferred spelling.

  •  Thinking that our own govt carrying out the (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    markw, cpresley, phoenixdreamz

    murder of our own citizens, and those from around the world and destruction of part of New York, and then blaming it on Saudia Arabia, supposedly our friends, is less destructive than thinking that Iraq bombed on 911?  Id like to ask why?  Seems that believing that one's own govt can't be trusted not to kill its own citizens in mass is pretty destructive to me.  

    By the way, if people will believe that of Bush they aren't far off in believing it of Clinton.  If yyou were in Clintons place and it was suggested that anyone with your past responsibilities to protect the country, how would you react?  That is if you were in his place, and not in your armchair.

    •  It's all about the consequences (0+ / 0-)

      Thought: "The government probably did it."

      Action: Detailed investigation.  

      VS

      Thought: "Saddam did it.  Ahmadinejad is the new Hitler with nukes!"

      Action: World destruction and massive loss of human life.

      You tell me what's more dangerous.

  •  What Do You Say..... (7+ / 0-)



    .....To people who watched (along with the rest of us) two giant jets full of jet fuel slam into two massive skyscrapers on live TV, creating a huge inferno that burned for two hours, and then have the gaul to say: "Well, if you believe that was the cause...".

    If someone shows up at a speech or event and heckles that shit, they deserve what they get.

    If they're being belittled, maybe it's because their argument is ridiculous & idiotic. Maybe they deserve to be ridiculed in the same way people ridicule those who want to argue Noah had dinosaurs on the Ark, or the Earth is flat.

  •  hate to defend the Clinton's but 9/11 (3+ / 0-)

    Recommended by:
    kredwyn, brownsox, trivium

    conspiracy theorists are right up there with the conservative wackos that fear the black helicopters of the UN.  There's biiger problems with a Clinton
    restoration than Bill putting some idiots in there place.

    After Obama's eighth straight victory, Penn told reporters: "Winning Democratic primaries is not a qualification or a sign of who can win the general election.

    by nevadadem on Fri Oct 26, 2007 at 11:09:34 PM PDT

  •  Bill was justified (7+ / 0-)

    911 truthers have become a cult.  I have learned to avoid discussions with them because the slightest deviation from the dogma will cause me to be branded a traitor, idiot, nazi, or worse.  By disrupting public events like the Clinton appearance and the Bill Mahar TV show they open themselves to ridicule and derision from both the right and the left.

    What's sad is that their antics stifle discussion and turn off people who might otherwise have been willing to listen.